New Stadium moves closer, again
A report in today’s Liverpool Echo suggests the latest version of plans for Liverpool’s new stadium should get approval next week.
This is the third set of plans submitted to the council so far, looking cosmetically at least very close to the second set announced in July, and although “downgraded” from that version, still far superior to the version that became known by many as “The Parry Bowl”.
The planning department have looked at the latest set of plans and have changed the status to “recommended”. The next step is for the planning committee to look at the recommendations and decide whether or not to grant approval.
The first version of the stadium was announced in 2002, with a message that it was hoped it would be open by 2006, but definitely in time for the 2008 Capital of Culture year. Instead, Paul McCartney will be performing his summer gig for the 2008 event at Anfield.
New Plans
In July the club’s owners arrived at Anfield with computer renderings of a stadium that impressed just about everyone. It looked unique, it looked prestigious, it looked like it was going to be something the fans could be proud of. Moving out of Anfield has never been something fans have accepted easily, but a stadium as impressive as that was seen by many fans as the nearest thing there was to a suitable replacement.
Then there came some bad news.
In December, Rick Parry was forced to announce that the plans were being scrapped. The phrase “slightly downgraded” was used in the Echo’s version of the interview, but by the time it appeared on the official website it became “slightly different”. In a period of growing suspicion towards the owners it was a worrying amendment. Parry had already tried to evade the issue two days earlier, and now his words were being changed. The reason for the change was financial; the version in July had come back at around £100m more than the owners wanted.
New New Plans
The following month the actual revised plans were unveiled, and to be quite honest it was difficult to see a major difference at first glance. Comparing images side-by-side showed there were certainly cosmetic changes, less use of glass and steel, but nothing much else was explained.
It wasn’t until the revised drawings went before the council that details of the changes were revealed, and the Echo listed some of those today. This version of the plans will be considered by the city council’s planning committee when it meets on May 6th.
Both version two and three of the plans were submitted as 60,000-seater stadiums, but with the provision for future expansion of approval could be given at a later date. The version 2 plans were provisioned with a maximum of 76,000 seats, but version 3 has a maximum of 73,000 according to the Echo. However that 73,000 figure conflicts with the 71,000 figure that was given in the announcement in January.
Differences
There were rumours that the underground car park had been scrapped, and although this isn’t true it has been halved in size. The Echo describes how a “three-storey car park will be located under tennis courts and a games area in Stanley Park, shielded from Priory Road by a ‘green wall’.”
Also what wasn’t apparent on the drawings revealed in January is the difference in physical size: “The width, length and height of the stadium has been reduced by several metres.” Changes have been made to the roof opening meaning it is smaller, and “designed differently to keep the crowd dry and help the pitch grow.”
The “skywalk” has been ditched, along with a roof terrace restaurant in the “Kop” end of the new stadium.
As the Echo points out, the work to improve the rest of Stanley Park, in effect the “sweetener” that not only helped the club to obtain grants but also did no harm in gaining the original planning consent is already underway. It’s on target for completion by the end of the year.
The recommendation in the council’s report said: “The overall form of the stadium, with the Kop as the main generator of the building form will add to the city skyline, and create a positive landmark and a focus for further investment. The changes introduced in March do little to dilute the architectural quality of the proposed stadium.”
But approval should only be granted on certain conditions. The cars in that 970-space car park must arrive an hour before kick-off, and remain there for at least an hour after the end of the game. There is also a requirement that for the first five years of the stadium’s life the club must fund annual reviews of residential parking around the ground, and pay for any recommendations that come up each year.
If approval is given then work will commence using the £60m from the controversial £350m refinancing package taken out by Tom Hicks and George Gillett in January. However, despite approval from the council being due on May 6th, work still can’t begin until a further waiting period has passed.
Suspicion
Another report in the Echo alludes to a claim gathering pace about the true intentions of the owners with regards the stadium. It says: “The suspicion is that the planning application is nothing but a paper exercise, at least while the two men holding the purse strings remain at loggerheads.”
The theory was first mentioned months ago, shortly after the new drawings were unveiled. Although the Echo doesn’t expand on it, the theory goes that the new stadium was never intended to be built, and that the new plans were drawn up purely to help increase the valuation of the club. The idea is that with approval for the new stadium in place, the club is worth more money. The part of the theory that hasn’t yet been explained is why approval for a £350m version of the stadium makes the club more valuable than with a £450m version.
The theory may also have been helped in some ways because of claims that documentation supplied for this latest attempt for planning permission was a far smaller pile of paper than the plans submitted in July. But another theory says this is because a procedural error in November’s planning decision meant the club could shortcut the usual processes needed for an amendment to the plans.
![Computer rendering of \](http://www.anfieldroad.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/new-anfield-v3-01-kop.jpg "Computer rendering of \")
A subject as emotive as this - not just for Liverpool supporters but also for local residents and of course Everton fans still unhappy at having to move to an out-of-town site as a replacement for Goodison - is always going to result in theories being thrown around. And that’s before adding the battle for the ownership of the club between Tom Hicks and Dubai into the equation. That battle is tied into a battle for the hearts and minds of fans of course.
Costs
Suggestions as to how much all these plans have cost are pretty heartbreaking if true. A figure between £15m and £20m has been repeated on more than one occasion, again going back some months, and although it doesn’t take much imagination to work out who this figure might come from, it doesn’t take much imagination to believe it either. Whether that figure is for all the plans drawn up since the club changed hands, or just the latest set isn’t actually clear. But the fact it’s such a high figure suggests the “paper exercise” theory may be stretching matters a touch.
One question that must be asked though is who was to blame for the overpriced plans in July. If HKS were given a figure to work to, surely they must be liable for the costs of drawing up the amended plans at the more affordable price-level. If they weren’t given a figure to work to then it has to be asked why not?
It’s essential that the full capacity of 73,000 is approved if the stadium is to be a success, and although a reduced-capacity car-park hinders that hope, a new rail facility would help it. Back in February officials from Anfield and Merseytravel went on a journey to investigate the possibilities of adding a new rail station on the old Bootle branch line.
These days it’s only used for freight, but it could be refurbished to allow match-day transport options to be given a boost.
Regeneration.
Rick Parry and Merseytravel’s CEO Neil Scales were amongst those who boarded a train at Lime Street to see if the idea was feasible. Parry said at the time: “It is vital to explore how it could contribute to north Liverpool’s regeneration. Getting so many people to see it first hand was an important first step.”
Scales said: “We are serious about making this work. This will be key for the club, but it is also about how we can better support north Liverpool.”
Also on board was Tuebrook councillor Steve Radford, who said it wouldn’t just be match-day travellers benefitting from such an idea: “This could regenerate the entire area. It would remove the need to travel by car, making north Liverpool much more attractive to professionals who need trains to commute.”
Possibilities suggested for the station included Utting Avenue (near The Clarence pub), Townsend Lane, and near to Anfield cemetery (close to the junction of Cherry Avenue and Stanley Park Avenue).
The costs of such a scheme aren’t believed to be prohibitive, especially when considering the facility could be the key to permission for the larger capacity of 73,000. That’s an extra 247,000 match tickets that can be sold every season for league games alone. Even at £40 each that’s close to £10m extra in ticket revenues per season over the 60,000 seats in the initial plans.
£40 a ticket would bring in £21.2m extra per league season compared to Anfield, and £40 is likely to be less than the minimum price by the time the new stadium opens. With all the other money a fan is likely to spend on an average visit it’s clear the number crunchers in the US and Dubai will have had a far higher figure factored into their predictions. Add possible Champions League and domestic cup games into the figures, alongside summer events making use of the ground, and then of course naming rights and it’s obvious why this stadium is so vital to Liverpool FC.
As well as the council making their decision at that committee meeting, it’s important that each of the current owners and the potential owners make their decisions too.
Decision Time
Tom Hicks, if he hasn’t already done so, needs to find the money and make the offer to George Gillett that he’s been promising he would since the turn of the year. He needs to do this as soon as possible.
Dubai International Capital, or whatever part of the Dubai government it ultimately is that wants to buy the club, needs to decide if it has made its final offer to both Gillett and Hicks. If it hasn’t then it needs to be making that final offer, one it won’t consider increasing under any circumstances, as soon as possible.
George Gillett, if he finds himself with two offers in front of him, has to decide which one to take. His decision will no doubt include considerations over how disruptive and costly any possible legal action might be, and how much profit he stands to make from either deal. If he remains firm in his assertion not to sell to Tom Hicks, perhaps it’s time he accepted that offer from DIC and allowed the next stage of that fight to commence. Otherwise he needs to make his mind up as soon as possible.
There’s every chance that meetings might take place around the time of the Champions League second leg next week, meetings that see some resolution, but if the theory is true that permission for this set of plans increases the club’s value then Gillett will no doubt wait that little bit longer.
MPs
Meanwhile, even if those involved in this ownership dispute all agreed to get back to negotiating in private, there’s now a chance more dirt will be dragged up under another public spotlight. The All Party Parliamentary Football Group of MPs has decided it’s time to launch an inquiry into “English football and its governance” and they feel the situation at Anfield one area they must look at. The chairman of the group is Alan Keen MP, who said: “English club football is enjoying great success in Europe at the moment. Yet many questions remain about the standard of corporate governance and whether it is best equipped to deal, at every level, with the long-term challenges of the game’s future.
“This is the focus of the group’s new inquiry. The group will examine case studies on governance, including Liverpool FC, where the role of the owners has raised significant public concerns and overshadowed achievements on the field.”
Important is this mess is to Liverpool fans, as awful as it’s been, it seems a little low down what should be a priority list for a group of MPs to spend time on, even if they’re going to spend time on football. UEFA’s attitude to English fans might have been more important, especially when looked at in conjunction with their treatment at the hands of authorities on the continent. Their time would possibly be of more use investigating how travel companies are able to obtain massive, often adjacent, blocks of tickets to football matches and sell them at inflated prices. After all, football ticket touting is illegal, yet somehow these agencies are not only finding it easy to get hold of tickets, but also to sell them for an easy profit. They may, whilst in the mood to investigate inflated prices, look into travel packages for big European fixtures.
There is a long list of issues that such a group would be far better looking into. After all, one way or another, Liverpool’s ownership mess is likely to be over and done with before they’ve arrived with their clipboards to gather information on it all.
Aint gonna happen, it`s a con game!
What a pity, instead of making it one of the best stadiums in the world its becoming smaller and less impressive. how can we ever compete and have a stadium our team and suporters truly deserve. We are having to settle for second rate all the time its alarming who the hell is doing a bad JOB get out now PLEASE!!!!!
I don’t know, red dawn… that looks like a pretty cool stadium. Bigger doesn’t always mean better. 73,000 would put it just smaller than Old Trafford but certainly a lot newer and nicer.
Not nearly as large as my team’s stadium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanford_Stadium) but still a great upgrade.
Jim,
When do you think is the earliest the new stadium could be completed? I would guess in the summer of 2010.
Dawg - nice stadium, but no roof?
They’ve always quoted 3 years as the time to build the stadium, so late summer 2011 is the likely date.
http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/newstadium/
Says the same there too.
What a MASSIVE let down! I agree with you, Red Dawn, that a club as big as LIVERPOOL FC has to settle for a 2nd class stadium is laughable. This is not a matter of Old Trafford or any FC stadium around Europe bigger than us, but THIS IS LIVERPOOL FC! We are massive! 80,000 pax should be the minimum. Imagine Malaysia (next to Singapore), 200+ in FIFA ranking… has 100,000 capacity stadium for crying out loud!
When you have Yank owners 2nd rate is something you have to get used to.
Jim - With regards to what you said that Gillette may stay around a bit longer to see if the value of his 50% increases do you not think that it may be possible that the two always had this as their intention i.e. they are playing good cop bad cop.
Also do you not believe that it is also possible that Gillette may be forced to sell up now as he may not be able to come up with the funds for the stadium. In the Echo it said that the plans will be given the go ahead but it does not mean that the stadium will be built because of the ownership mess.
The last time they tried to refinance the loan they had trouble because Gillette was streched to the limit. If Hicks is having trouble comming up with the money to buy out Gillette then whats to say he will be able to get the money even with Gillette on board with him to get the money for the stadium. I think that this whole saga is drawing to a conclusion, what do you think?
We could probably have had a bigger stadium if we’d been willing to move elsewhere. I think this one (and the July one) was restricted by having to fit in with the boundaries of the Parry Bowl so it could get through as a variation on the Parry Bowl’s planning permission. I don’t know without going back to look if the Parry Bowl could have been any bigger.
If DIC take over would they go back to the July version? I’m not sure if it’s worth paying an extra £100m for an extra 3000 seats.
Would they come up with their own plans? That’s yet another year wasted.
It’s embarrasing that we ever saw the July version, only to be told it was too expensive, but it’s done now. This version is - in my view - the one that Hicks or DIC should go for, whoever takes over.
Agree with Massive Red. Liverpool FC Stadium is not about profit alone! It’s bigger than that. It’s job opportunity for one, and a Liverpool landmark with massive regeneration platform. This is what happen when two yanks came with quick bucks in mind! I think it’s about time local authorities should interfere with this massive letdown, not to mention the bad PR that we, people associated with Liverpool FC have been dragged through for the past 12 months!
Jim - The new stadium is designed to have its capacity increased because one of the stands have been designed to have another tier put on it, or something like that. Why can LFC not at some future point fill in the corners like they have at Old Trafford and the Emirates. This stadium is going to complement the manner in which old stadia where built by having four completely separate stands, so whats to say that they couldn’t increase the capacity to 80000+ at some future point?
Anthony - there’s £60m in the pot to get the stadium going, I’ve no idea how long that would last before they need to get some more money.
It’s possible that with that £60m of money in place they can start getting bit by bit the rest of the funding. It’s totally separate to the other borrowing, and secured essentially against the actual stadium it’s probably easier to raise than the other financing. Still doesn’t guarantee they’ll get it, but I don’t think they’ll have a problem, one way or other.
Good theory on the good cop bad cop! Nothing would surprise me any more.
Jim - With regards to the times links, last night a tried three times to insert a post with a times link but when I pressed submit comment the normal thing appeared to happen but what it done was it took me to the top of the screen without inserting my post. The before I tried to insert another post with a Times link, the same one you put in and it done the same. Maybe you have got administrator privalages or something. You can even check last night where I posted is anyone having trouble putting post on the board. I will try and insert a link from the times next and see if it works.
The point about expanding the stadium further might happen, I’ve no idea if it’s feasible - it wouldn’t please architecture lovers though.
Jim - A Times Link:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/article3816631.ece
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/article3816631.ece
Jim - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/article3816631.ece
Jim - No its not allowing me to post Times links.
Jim - It was 23rd 10.32 where I written that I was having problems.
jim -
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/article3816631.ece
Well that makes a change……..Great article, best ive read on newsnow ever, very valid points and reasoning, original, need i say more. Well ok, yes then, the debacle’s solution is common sense really. We know their in it for profit, they know we know, yet their in denial, the law will favour Gillett to sell to who he wants, he will sell to DIC (planning permission for new stadium pending), Hicks wont stay long and will sell to DIC.. All money wasted on legal disputes, by the time approval for stadium granted no funding will be left or the cost of the stadium construction will have doubled and therefore be out of budget range… Gillett an Hicks should both sell to DIC NOW, or we’ll never see a new stadium, and we’ll always be playin catchup.
LFC YNWA
My theory is the £60m is the leverage that they will use to get a new loan soon. I doubt i will goes into the stadium as the initial loan is nearing it’s 1st massive interest (re)payment. It has been widely written that they need to fork out a new loan soon to REALLY get the building started. And if it’s get an approval, it will defo increased the valuation of the club which will make it even difficult for DIC take-over. Make no mistake, once the stadium construction get started, Hick will defo stands firm behind his £1,000,000,000.00 (£1 billion!) evaluation. Where DIC reluctant to pay that amount as they think the extra money is best goes into club development and marketing instead of paying sky high profits to you know who.
“Dawg - nice stadium, but no roof?”
No. American football is more conducive to rain than soccer/football is though. I also imagine there might be more demand for a roof if there were more games, but our stadium only sees 6-7 games each year… so the starved fans come ready to tolerate whatever weather we get.
good cop, bad cop sounds a very feasible possibility, I mean what exactly made them fall out in the first place???? cos I cant recall anything. they may have just used the media to fashion a get rich quick scam, i mean scheme..lets not forget their business men not football or LFC fans.
Anthony,
I can see your Times links.
Dawg / Jim - Yes they have all appeared know, somtime after they where posted. Jim have you fixed it, or was there another reason why they didn’t appear?
“good cop, bad cop sounds a very feasible possibility, I mean what exactly made them fall out in the first place???? cos I cant recall anything.”
Carl,
Gillett was ready to sell and cash out on his quick and highly profitable investment, but Hicks, who wants to own the team for the long-term, did not want to co-own Liverpool with DIC. Hicks vetoed the sale, and now Gillett is pouting. Hicks has an equivalent offer for him now, but Gillett has decided to get revenge by holding out longer and playing the victim. He will be gone soon enough though since what he ultimately wants is his money back and to be gone from Liverpool.
” good cop, bad cop sounds a very feasible possibility, I mean what exactly made them fall out in the first place???? cos I cant recall anything. they may have just used the media to fashion a get rich quick scam, i mean scheme..lets not forget their business men not football or LFC fans. ”
Carl - Yes I know, if they play good cop bad cop then they wont get stuck in a corner if they both appear to pull in the same direction. If they both said sell they would have to sell and possibly lose a fortune. If they both said they wouldn’t sell then they would not be able to tow DIC along. Good cop bad cop gives them the best of both worlds. Who gives a shit about the fans, business is business.
Anthony, all your Times posts had gone into a spam folder, no idea why it would do that to you but not others, or on Times links but not others.
Dawg: Is it easy to get tickets or does it always sell out?
I,m with you on this one Anthony.. both would be inept business men if they sold before getting the approval for the new stadium. What worries me is how much of the borrowed money is being wasted and all the time construction costs in todays financial climate continue to inflate. Remember, the effect of constructing the Olympics in Bejiing is putting a huge financial strain on worldwide construction projects because of China’s demand for raw materials, thus causing prices to soar. Did you know a train one mile long, carrying iron ore bound for China, leaves an Austalian quarry every hour!!!!!
Jim - It might have been happening to others, but I may have been the only person to report it? Many thanks for fixing the problem anyway.
Carl - China is the big one, but India is also on the same track as China, just not quite as demanding on the worlds recources.
” Carl - China is the big one, but India is also on the same track as China, just not quite as demanding on the worlds recources. ”
Yet!
I work in building control and find this whole farce over the new stadium heartbreaking, for LFC’s sake, they just need to stick a spade in the ground and works would be deemed commenced, but they wont do that cos it means outlaying money. their clever, take out a huge debt to look to have good intentions, use some of that debt to get planning approval, sell, pass on the debt AND make huge personal profits.. the clever bit, no outlay and therefore no risk.
Carl - They have made a meal out of the stadium, they’re taking the piss. They could walk away now and make more money in 18 months than we can only ever dream of and they wont have spent a penny. All these trips that they have made to Liverpool games and all the business trips that they have made with regards to the club will have all been paid for by the club. Food, travel expenses and everthing that you can think of will all have been billed to the club.
Yup… i agree Carl. I have a Economic professor friend from Illinois and he’s LOL when reading through this whole saga. according to him, should this happen in the State, a public inquiry defo will be launched. It’s surprises him how local MP tolerates such shambles going out in public w/o any inquiry!
Massive RED - There is nothing that the government can do, because its a private sale of a privately owned company, between individuals who have nothing to do with the government. The only way a public inquiry can happen is to debate the possibilty of the club moving onto a publically owned park. A public inquiry can be held to see whether it should be allowed or not. In the UK we have to abide by European laws which are different than US laws. For example in the UK under EU laws we could not have a Premier league franchise like the NFL franchise you have in the USA, it would break competition laws.
Massive Red, there is to be an inquiry with regard to foriegn corporate ownership and the effect it is having on English football, LFC will be used as just one example. Typical of England the inquiry will last a lot longer than an American Election, and there will be no end result. Gillett an Hicks will be long gone with pockets lined with gold.
Maltas Official LFC Supporters website
“Liverpool’s power struggle between the club’s American owners will be part of a new inquiry into football by MPs.
The All Party Parliamentary Football Group is to launch a new inquiry into English football and its governance, and the Liverpool crisis is one of the areas it will target.
The club’s progress to the Champions League semi-finals has been overshadowed by a row between co-owners Tom Hicks and George Gillett.
Alan Keen MP, chairman of the group, said: “English club football is enjoying great success in Europe at the moment.
“Yet many questions remain about the standard of corporate governance and whether it is best equipped to deal, at every level, with the long-term challenges of the game’s future. This is the focus of the group’s new inquiry.”
Trouble is The All Party Parliamentary Football Group will be focusing on the wrong issues.
If the yanks had any intention of building this stadium they would have started the prep work within the approved footprint.
Over half the work for a project this size takes place before anything gets above ground level.
Planning permission for a smaller footprint is a formality in a situation where so many partner agencies are desperate for this regeneration project to go ahead.
Yanks know this and ‘waiting for planning permission’ for the smaller scheme was just a fig leaf while they waited for a change in the finance climate.
Step 1, buy club from pair of clowns using short term loans.
Step 2, throw away Coco’s fag packet sketches of a ground he once saw driving through Bolton and draw up exciting plans for new stadium and assoc income generation
Step 3, go back to banks showing astronomic future earning potential from stadium and mortgage huge amounts on the increased value of ‘club with super-stadium on the way’ - this funds both original purchase, running costs of club and enough to get stadium constructed
Step 4 - Stadium underway, giant profits on the horizon, renegotiate increased loans on better terms
Step 5 - Sell club to arabs for billions
Of course the credit crunch has bit the yanks on the arse, they tried to ride it out but the climate is getting worse and Gillet has obviously decided to split and run.
Hicks on the otherhand can smell the future profit and isn’t going to let go of a billion dollar profit just because Plan A failed and he has no Plan B.
So the grass continues to grow…
Fakir,
I’m not talking about the inquiry reg the club take-over, but reg the new stadium development. Make no mistake tho im not in England right now, but i’ve been following this debacle very closely.
As i vaguely mentioned earlier, this whole saga is a text book cover-up to raise/up the club valuation for potential new buyer/investor.
But know this, tho this is a private club, but the STADIUM is build on a public park, complete with government grant! Remember Steve Morgan? Yes he wanted to share the ground with Everton FC, but that is the only way at that time, with the club limited funds, to build a stadium that can accommodates 80,000 pax.
Why? Because with SHARED stadium, a bigger funds/grant from the local government will be allocated thus solved the problem reg transportation & adjacent infrastructures.
We all know a SHARED stadium is NOT acceptable to both set of fans, hence Moore & Parry scouting the globe looking for a new owner. I doubt if we in Moores’ shoes, we easily let go a club that has been in our family for more than 50 years unless we hit a financial barrier as he did.
One clause in the club selling agreement is reported stated that a new stadium should be build by the new owner on Stanley Park (which is a public park) with a approved grant by local government for a stadium to accommodate 60,000 pax due to club hesitation to fund (an expensive) local transportation facilities for crowds more than 60,000.
The stated 73,000 figure stated in the article above is future capacity once the transportation facilities are improved to accommodate such crowds.
So back to my argument, YES, local authority HAS a right to inquiry into the club (aka new owner) regarding THE STADIUM, which to my basic understanding will open-up a can of worms!
Carl,
I agree… most likely they will be focusing on the ‘wrong’ issue(s).
Thanks for the article Jim. Interesting comments by everyone.
From what I can see the stadium looks great and I would be delighted to see it built and in use as soon as possible. I don’t know why there’s so much negativity really.
“slightly downgraded”
“slightly different”
“slightly miscalculated”
“slightly smaller”
mostly ridiculous to say that you are strong enough to be Liverpool F.C. owner Hicks!
“Dawg: Is it easy to get tickets or does it always sell out?”
Each game sold out each year, months in advance. (Orders must be in by February. Tickets mailed out in August. Season starts the first Saturday in September.) You have to give a few hundred dollars to keep the rights to your seats each year as well.
College football in America is the closest thing we have to EPL football. The most serious fans of American football I know barely even pay attention to NFL football. They follow college football religiously though. (NFL fans don’t travel to games; College fans do; etc.)
One thing European football fans have about which I’m jealous is a season that runs from August to May. My game unfortunately only goes from September through November (and then possibly one game in late December, early January). Only 12-14 games each year. (Imagine only 12-14 Liverpool games each year.) We have to sit and anxiously wait from January through August, studying the team’s (and our rivals’) moves, practices, development of new players, etc. Then you play your biggest rivals just once each year. You can imagine how much you’d want to beat Everton, Arsenal, etc. if you only played them on one day each year… and how much you’d hate to have to sit and hear their taunts for the next 12 months if you lost.
There are 120 first-division teams in American college football; divided into 11 conferences, by geography. My team has won our conference twice in the last quarter century (in 2002 and 2005), but we have not won the national championship since 1980. (Last year we finished #2, one spot away.
) But in 2008 we are expected to start the season at #1… for the first time ever. I’m already so nervous about this I can hardly think of anything else… and we’re still over four months away from the first game. 
The Montreal Canadiens won last night. The Dallas Stars won tonight. So both teams move closer to being among the final 4 teams for the Stanley Cup this year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Stanley_Cup_Playoffs#Bracket
The Canadiens have been in existence for nearly 100 years. The Stars have been in existence for 41 years. They have never met in the Stanley Cup Finals. Could this - of all years - be the first time?
^^^^^^^^^^ Who cares.
i thought it was very interesting but then I’m a fan of American sports…
The stadium looks impressive and if this is the ‘downgraded/cheaper’ version the original must have had gold taps and diamond encrusted seat numbers or sumut.
Don’t undertand the negativity but I suppose people will turn everything into an attack on Hicks..it’s getting tiresome though.
@Texas_Dawg: Sounds awful. I’d hate that to be honest, I’m already getting that despondent feeling of knowing it’s near the end of another season with only cricket and tennis to “look forward” to. And I don’t look forward to it.
Not a fan of international football particularly, even Euro2008 won’t be much of a consolation.
But pre-season starts in July, so we’ve only really got one full month where there won’t be some kind of Liverpool game being played.
@ModusOperandi: There’s talk that Dubai would put their efforts behind the £450m version of the stadium rather than the £350m version, but it would take a lot to convince me that was the right thing to do now.
An extra £100m is more than the original price we would have paid in total when the stadium was first announced in 2002.
Even if we allow ourselves to think of Dubai running the club purely for fun (which they won’t) that’s a lot of extra money to build into their plans, for just an extra 3000 seats and a chance of getting decent view of the Liverpool skyline from a walkway above the Kop. (There are more changes than that, but not enough to justify LFC paying yet another £100m out).
It’s not built yet, but if it does get built then it’s probably the one thing the US owners could be praised for, purely because of how much better than the old plans it is.
They just shot themselves in the foot offering us the Platinum model and giving us the Gold model - but it’s still far better than the sub-Bronze model of before.
Dawg nobody cares.
We were promised the finest stadium in the world. Not we have the finest downgraded and downsized stadiums in the world.
And Jim before you claim otherwise it was Hicks who consistently stated it would be the finest stadium in the world.
What that I was talking earlier about?? Oh yeah, broken promises…
Parry held us back for years now its the yanks. How can such a great club be so badly run for so many years. If it wasn’t for the brilliance of our fans i dread to think how low we could have fallen.
I personally remember when the current plans where issued to the public, no-one could tell the difference between the two. This stadium is not as good as the previouse one but it is not really that bad. It looks better than the Emirates, which everyone is saying is a beutifull stadium. All they have done is taken away some of the nonsense that was never needed in the first place. If this stadium was presented to us straight after the Parry bowl then we would have all had the same reaction to this one as we did to the previous one. This stadium has just had all the bows and tassles removed from it.
It says in the Echo that building work could start within weeks in the Daily post.
” Parry held us back for years now its the yanks. How can such a great club be so badly run for so many years. If it wasn’t for the brilliance of our fans i dread to think how low we could have fallen. ”
Stephen - If Dubai had never re-entered into the ownership dabarkle then would all the fans still be calling for the head of Hicks? The fact that DIC have been trying to purchase the club from under Hick’s nose has given the fans a reason to start picking away at the Yank. I think that if DIC where not on the seen then we would have all forgiven and forgoten Hicks past errors, and we would be prepared to give him a second chance.
DIC have rocked the boat on Hicks and have used the fans to do that. The thing is though DIC have seen the way the fans have treated Hicks, so they will have to do a better job than Hicks and Gillette have done for two reasons. The first reason is if after all this mess DIC do take over the club then the fans will expect DIC to make a great improvement to the club than the current situation is now, otherwise the fans will turn on them. The second reason is the way the press have vilified Hicks. The press could easily turn on DIC the way they have with Hicks and Gillette, so if DIC do not do a much better job than Hick’s and Gillette then they will be in for a very rough ride at the hands of the press. DIC will not want to be treated the same way as Hick’s and Gillette have been by the press, it will be more damaging to DIC than it will be to H&G. DIC is a company so the bad press will damage their reputation. I think for these reasons having DIC owning the club will be better than the current owners. My reasons for thinking this is because everyone will be expecting DIC to come up with the goods, so if they don’t come up with the goods everyone will turn on them, and DIC know that. DIC know that they will not get away with not doing good by LFC.
If DIC hadn’t come it then i believe the fans would be in greater uproar. At least we see a way out of it. Share Liverpool FC was set up as soon as it became clear that Hicks and Gillett were clowns who wanted to rape the club and fleece the fans - nothing to do with DIC.
Think how helpless we would all feel if we didn’t see a way out. A cornered animal is a more dangerous one.
The fans are upset with Hicks and Gillett purely down to their complete mismanagement of the club. They talk and talk but they never do anything. Pictures and promises and broken promises is all Hicks and Gillett have brought to this club. Oh yeah and absolute turmoil in the board room.
They are parasites, Yanks out.
Stephen - Yep, i forgot to take Share Liverpool into consideration. The Yanks, especially Hick’s can complain all he wants about the Tabloid press in this country, but you only have to ask the likes of Amy Winehouse, Pete Doherty, Kate Moss and Heather Muca Mills, that if you do not give the press anything to write then they can’t write anything, there is no smoke without fire. Hicks claiming to be a victim is a crock of shit, he has brought it all on himself.
Just seen Vidic get kneed in the face by Drogba, spitting blood everywhere. Hope he misses the Barca game.
@Stephen: I get your point Stephen, and I’m not happy with the way we went from V2 to V3, at all. We should not have been shown V2, it’s as simple as that.
V3 wasn’t as dumbed-down as I thought it might be, but we still had to go through that 5 or 6 weeks of wondering what might be. And V3 is still better than the second attempt the English architects had.
But at some point we’ll have to stop moaning about what’s already happened and try and accept what’s in front of us.
The final choice on this stadium will be there for another 100 years or so, so I doubt most of us will see the next ground move take place. (Some might say we won’t see this one take place either!)
No point sitting in it arms folded and sulking.
Second chance?
Actually they on the 10th or 11th chances already mate. Would you give a (further) chance to Hicks who initially refused to give Rafa a transfer budget when Agger downs with a long term injury?
Should we fans & Rafa not making a big fuss/noise about this, will we end up with Skrtel??
I wont even go into the stadium debacles anymore as that’s an apparent text-book tactic to hold-out for more cash from DIC or any potential buyer.
Yanks Out!
@Texas_Dawg: The Montreal Canadiens won last night. The Dallas Stars won tonight. So both teams move closer to being among the final 4 teams for the Stanley Cup this year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Stanley_Cup_Playoffs#Bracket
The Canadiens have been in existence for nearly 100 years. The Stars have been in existence for 41 years. They have never met in the Stanley Cup Finals. Could this - of all years - be the first time?
Could it be turned into the battle for LFC? Winner gets to choose what to do with the other’s half?
I agree Jim,
it would be difficult to make a case for Anfield ever having been the finest stadium in the world. You just get on with it.
Nobody is sulking. I am actively trying to do what is right for this club. One thing I am not prepared to do is sit back and give Hicks anymore time to bluff us fans.
His chances have all dried up. Where is the money for the stadium going to come from??
We are already £350m in debt. Look at the Arsenal stadium and they needed to work very hard to get their financing. They needed to secure funding from a consortium of banks. And there are huge differences between us and them
1). They had no debt.
2). They had a huge backer in Emirates
3). They were able to convert Highbury into apartments and recoup tens of millions in profits from that
4). The credit cycle was at its peak when banks were throwing away money at low interest rates.
5). They already had premiership winning team in place.
6). They had shareholders who didn’t take any dividends from the club
Despite all this they still had to work very hard to receive the funding. In todays environment i fear for Liverpools ability get this financing. That is why Gillett wants out and prehaps why DIC are so confident.
Yanks out.
Back to football briefly!
If Crouch gets a game today, I fancy him to get a couple.
Jim - You reckon that V3 of the Dallas stadium is better than V2 of the Manc stadium. Well I’ve heard that only Hicks chose the Dallas stadium whilst Parry and Gillette chose the Manc V2. Seeming that you have never seen the Manc V2 I do not see how you can make such claims. You are blindly trusting Hicks. Hicks has used the Dallas firm before so there’s nothing to say that Hick’s only chose that firm to make himeself look like the big man infront of the Dallas firm boss, or maybe he has a thing for the secretary who works for that firm and he done it to impress her. The fact that Hick’s chose the Dallas firm does not mean that it was the best design.
Massive RED - If there was no Share Liverpool or no DIC then I think that Hicks would have come out on a PR charm offensive. Then I think that the Fans would have grudgingly gave the yank a second chance only on the grounds that Hicks wouold have made promisses. The fans would gave him a chance to keep his promises.
Chavski have just scored a penalty against the mancs. Less than 3 minutes normal time left.
Chavski just cleared ball of the line. An interesting point to make. If Man u get beat today then they have lost 5 games all season. Liverpool have only lost 4 and 2 of them where to the Mancs, so it is our draws that have let us down. The margin of difference between us and the top 2 is in reality very small. Some of the games against the likes of Wigan and others of that calirbre have lost us the right to challenge for the league title.
Our away record is either the best or is second best in the league. It is our home record that has let us down.
Hope the mancs lose both the league and the champions league. It would kill me to see them do the double.
The problem is Fakir… he SAID spade with be on the ground in 60 days… now it’s 441 days… and counting!
Massive RED - Yeah I know what your saying, but my point is that if there was no plan B on the table, then do you not believe that the make up of this whole situation look very different to the fans. So instead of the fans wanting him out right now, they may be looking to give him another chance. The only reason that the fans are not giving Hick’s any room is because there is a better offer on the table.
Massive RED - Where about in the US are you from.
Bolton Wanderers won’t be happy, Birmingham have just scored; Birmingham City 1 - 0 Liverpool.
It might give the game an injection of life, boring the tits of me.
@Anthony Fakir: Jim - You reckon that V3 of the Dallas stadium is better than V2 of the Manc stadium. Well I’ve heard that only Hicks chose the Dallas stadium whilst Parry and Gillette chose the Manc V2. Seeming that you have never seen the Manc V2 I do not see how you can make such claims. You are blindly trusting Hicks. Hicks has used the Dallas firm before so there’s nothing to say that Hick’s only chose that firm to make himeself look like the big man infront of the Dallas firm boss, or maybe he has a thing for the secretary who works for that firm and he done it to impress her. The fact that Hick’s chose the Dallas firm does not mean that it was the best design.
Have a look yourself Anthony, see what you think:
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/anfieldroad.com/LFCStadiumRejectedAFLPlans
I take it you weren’t serious with the secretary comment?
@Massive RED: The problem is Fakir… he SAID spade with be on the ground in 60 days… now it’s 441 days… and counting!
This is one of the silly arguments that is distracting us all from the real issues. And there are some real issues.
1) Gillett made the comment.
2) It was, to paraphrase, a spade in the ground in 60 days or we lose grants.
3) The 441 days complaint is effectively a cry for the plans agreed before they took over. I don’t know anybody who prefers those.
The issue is we all accepted a delay, and in return we should have had plans shown to us in July that weren’t deemed too expensive. Maybe one day we’ll get a fuller explanation (or you can speculate now) but so far nothing has been said that is really acceptable.
To be honest though, it’s one season it’s cost us in a new ground, assuming no more problems it’s a minor delay in something as long-term as a new stadium.
0-2
Jim - Birmingham City FC 2 - 1 Liverpool FC
There is no real difference in the two designs apart from one having four seperate stands, would not complain about having either of them. You don’t know how Hick’s ego ticks. He may think that if he gives the deal to the Dallas firm he may be able spend more time with the secretary, you never know. She may make a lovely cup of tea.
Jim -Can the Manc V2 have its capacity upgraded to 73000? If not then the Dallas V3 is best.
Birmingham City FC 2 - 2 Liverpool FC
Jim - Hick’s also said when they bought the club that you will probably see a big swimming pool being dug in Stanley Park. So Hicks also implied that construction would be underway not long thereafter.
“AFL revised proposals for new stadium was presented to Liverpool Football Club early January 2008, for which the capacity is 72,000 with 18,500 seated in the new single tier kop.”
http://www.afl-uk.com/projects.php?action=showProject&catID=43&projectID=227
FT Birmingham City FC 2 - 2 Liverpool FC
Jim - I will wear my colours on my sleeve here, and I will go with you, Dallas V3 is the better of the two. It looks better on the outside and you never know they may be able to fill in the corners to increase that capacity to 80000+.
“Could it be turned into the battle for LFC? Winner gets to choose what to do with the other’s half?”
Jim,
I’ve thought the same thing myself.
Either way, I’m sure that Stanley Cup Finals would get more attention from the UK press than any previous Finals.
Dawg - Is ice hockey as big as basket ball, NFL football (american football) and baseball?
” @Texas_Dawg: Sounds awful. I’d hate that to be honest, I’m already getting that despondent feeling of knowing it’s near the end of another season with only cricket and tennis to “look forward” to. And I don’t look forward to it. ”
Jim - From this comment above I suppose that it will be a waste of time to leave posts on county or test match cricket?
It might be a good idea to watch the European Championships, alot of potential purchases will be in the shop window, or even some of LFC’s new signings may be playing. We will be able to watch them play for the first time during that competition.
Do you no what I find annoying about closed season, Soccer AM is not on.
@Anthony Fakir: Leave posts on cricket if you like. Just don’t ask me to join in!
I’ll probably watch the Euros in the end, usually do, although I’m not sure how much attention it’ll get here this time, with all the British and Irish missing.
I gave up on Soccer AM a couple of seasons back, except for the odd episode I’d catch here and there.
LFC.tv should do one. Brekkie from Carra’s bar.
“Dawg - Is ice hockey as big as basket ball, NFL football (american football) and baseball?”
Anthony,
No… by numbers alone (i.e. TV ratings, salaries), it is the #4 of the 4 North American “majors” (NFL (American football), NBA (basketball), MLB (baseball), NHL (hockey). But to me this is a point in NHL’s favor because you will find that hockey fans are usually, on average, the most passionate and knowledgeable about their sport. Many people who really don’t know much about sports, and ultimately don’t really care, claim to be fans of the other sports (especially NFL/NBA)… but if you meet a hockey fan, he/she is usually very serious about the game. In other words, it’s not just a game that someone will just watch occasionally because everyone else in North America is watching (as is the case with many people regarding the other 3 majors). Someone watching hockey is more likely someone who has made it a point to do so… because he/she loves the game and follows it closely. Also, I have heard many North American sports fans that don’t really follow NHL, at least admit that the NHL playoffs are the most intense and crazy of any of the other majors.
All this said, Anthony, I am from a region where American college football is king among serious sports fans. As Jim uses cricket/tennis to get him by, I use MLB/NHL mainly just to get me from January to September each year.
UNITED IN POST-MATCH BUST-UP
By Adrian Curtis, PA Sport
Chelsea’s groundstaff were involved in a post-match bust-up with Manchester United players during a warm-down session at Stamford Bridge.
United’s Patrice Evra, Paul Scholes, John O’Shea, Gerard Pique and Gary Neville were taking part in the warm-down on the pitch when they were asked to move by Chelsea groundstaff.
The row erupted when the players refused to come off the pitch and an altercation broke out between Chelsea stewards, groundstaff and the United players.
Chelsea had earlier beaten Manchester United 2-1 to go level on points at the top of the Barclays Premier table.
Chelsea are to examine CCTV footage of the incident. A spokesman for the club told PA Sport: “We will be studying the relevant CCTV and camera footage in a bid to establish the best and most appropriate course of action.”
http://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/08/04/26/SOCCER_Chelsea_Evra.html
Also,
What was Ferguson saying about Mascherano the other week?
http://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/08/04/26/SOCCER_Man_Utd_Quotes.html
Do you know what I really like those other designs. The stadium looks a lot more imposing from the inside.
But I do also love the HKS design. Two very good looking stadiums in my opinion.
I actually think the AFL design looks pretty good! I think i prefer the HKS design slightly more though, just looks a bit more classy.
Anthony - I’ll talk cricket with you if you want!
Interesting that the AFL design is quoted at £290 million on their website. Isn’t that 60 less than the HKS design?!
Martin - Who are England playing in the summer tests?
South Africa and New Zealand I believe.
Jim, what do you think our prospective chances are against the aforementioned teams?! hahahaha.
Anyway, back to the football.
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2008/04/26/anfield-owners-graffiti-bill-rap-100252-20823536/
Rumour has it The Echo is publishing exclusive pictures on monday of the culprit. They mysteriously refer to him only as Jim B. Pictures show the man wielding a can of official DIC spray paint in one hand and a heart shaped framed photograph of the Sheikh Mohammed in the other…
Jim,
What do you make of the alleged article in the mail on sunday regarding DIC and Mourinho?
I havent read it - it doesn’t appear to be online and i haven’t purchased said paper, but IF true that’s gotta be considered a score for Hicks in the long drawn out PR battle. I wonder if Hicks will make mention to it in the future…
@Martin: I don’t know how they’ll do, but don’t they all get knighted if they ever win a test series?
As for the walls, I heard it was the DIC PR machine. Was it smeared?
I saw that one too Martin, its a rumour that’s been around for a long time. Maybe the Mail On Sunday just wanted to run a Liverpool DIC story and regurgitated it. And after Mourinho’s comments about returning to England the other day maybe now is a good time.
lol Jim,
Yes the MBE’s were a bit OTT as fantastic as that win was. Anyway, no more mention of that game here!
I have a comical image in my head of Al-Ansari and Bick giggling like school kids as they write profanities on the walls around Anfield at midnight…
Hop, I guess it could be regurgitated. It would be interesting to see if he’s quoted or not. Quoted and it’s significant (providing it’s recent), but i wouldn’t put it past them to just fabricate something as if it came from Mourinho’s mind. To be honest I think DIC would have to be absolutely nuts to do that, and as such I think it removes the story of all credibility. There’s no way that DIC if they got control would then upset the fans by doing that having seen the reaction to the Klinsmann talks. Anyway, I think JIm has pointed out recently that Rafa has a future under either prospective owner, although I guess only one of them has actually come out and said as much…
btw, When are the papers going to stop reporting this rubbish about Gareth Barry?! “The potential arrival of Barry at Anfield casts a doubt on the future of Liverpool midfielder Xabi Alonso” - Do me a favour! Barry for Alonso?! I will be quite upset if Rafa doesn’t look at wide players both in defence and midfield. We have enough central midfielders, with the possible exception of an attacking central player to back up Gerrard.
I say it every year it seems for the last decade but we need wingers and strikers.
@Martin: I’ve heard stuff about DIC and Mourinho a few times in the last week or two, all quite vague. If it’s true, it sounds like it was an old idea, and it’s also pretty worrying too, given what most of us think of Mourinho. But it might not be true…
Hop, just one more theory.. If Mourinho has said it now, maybe he is trying to rattle Rafa prior to the game this week?
Regurgitated - yes, probably is, but it’s been getting mentioned all afresh recently, no idea why. And it’s not being put about by Hicks either as far as I can tell.
Maybe it’s Mourinho’s agent!